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Vudak



Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, I'm not trying to come across as disrespectful (I guess it's tough not to, because I honestly don't see what you're doing as commendable), but I don't know how a person can advocate wetting their hands before they touch a fish, not photographing it on land, and gently releasing it (all good ideas), yet be ok with leaving bass fry defenseless for an extended period of time, and not see the hypocrisy in their actions. It simply can't be reconciled.

Go Bama, you make good points. They strongly support allowing people to take home their catch - in season (I am for this, by the way. I am also for hunting 100%). You are quite right that pure catch and release can, in some instances, stunt growth. However, this does not support taking bass at their most vulnerable time. There is an entire summer to catch and eat the critters and thin what needs to be thinned. Further, your theories assume that the status quo continues. Not only with the same number of fishermen catching the same number of fish, but also with the vitality of the waterfront. Disease, drought, excess predators, etc. happen naturally. We shouldn't unnecessarily add to the troubles.

Here's an idea... Why not, for a few weeks during the bass spawn, have the tournaments target pike? They've will have mostly already spawned by then, and they aren't known for guarding their nests, anyway. You can still have the thrill of competition, you can still cash a check, you can still have a great day on the water with friends, and you can do it while boasting your multi-species prowess and while practicing conservation. Further, you'll still get the occasional thrill of catching a large, bedding largemouth bass, but after a photo and a memory, you just toss them back.

What's the problem with that?
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J.P.
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PECo



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 5200
Location: Avon, CT

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a three boat/four angler northern pike tournament on Bantam Lake last year and actually got two fish. Losing 41 inches/17-1/2 pounds to 27 inches/four pounds was tough. Here's DirtyDawg10 (akak Derek) with his pike:



And here's Flipper (aka Damian) with his:



All Hail Flipper, The Pike King!

And, yes, we caught and immediately released all of the largemouth bass that we caught, including this three pound, eight ouncer:



Although this was at the end of September and not in April or May, I'd love to do it again.
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dave_376



Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"yet be ok with leaving bass fry defenseless for an extended period of time"

Bass guarding fry isn't necessarily as good as you think...Bass are predators and once their eggs hatch they are no longer their babies they are food. I have seen a guarding bass turn into the ball of fry and eat a mouth-full. the male Bass guards the eggs on the bed and then they go back to eating once the eggs hatch into fry.

I have also seen more beds out of the water on lakes where the water level was lowered to generate power. So i think we should ad no using electricity for the two months of the spawn either. But seriously The fishery hasn't seemed effected by a year where no fish were able to spawn....Like Bama said they only need I offspring over their lifetime to sustain the fishery. I agree with you enthusiasm over conservation I feel it is misdirected on this topic.
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Vudak



Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said my piece. Either no one agrees with it, or no one is willing to agree with it publicly. I'll count my blessings that other nearby states agree with my feelings and leave it at that.
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perfect hook set



Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 1069
Location: Danbury

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vudak no offense u remind me of peta
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Vudak



Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perfect hook set wrote:
vudak no offense u remind me of peta


I'm not against fishing, not against taking fish, and not against fishing tournaments. Just wish people would show a little more respect towards the resource.

No offense, but you kinda remind me of these guys:

[/img]
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DickVanPike



Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no way, the fish I rip off of beds during the spawn are way bigger than those!
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PECo



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 5200
Location: Avon, CT

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree with you if you could show me that the practice of taking largemouth bass off of their beds during spawning by tournament fishermen has a measurably negative impact on a fishery. It sounds like you're assuming a fact that's not in evidence. Like someone else said, in large fisheries like Candlewood, the number of bass taken off of their beds and kept during tournaments is probably negligible. In smaller fisheries, the bass taken might be able to find their way back to the beds. And the absence of a guarding male from a bed might not have as significant an impact on the survivability of the fry as you assume. Taking action for the sake of taking action based on some unsupported theory seems premature to me.

J.P., your protective instincts seem a little heightened. Did you and Crystal just have or will you soon have a baby, by any chance? Very Happy
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Vudak



Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suffice to say, the people of NY as of now subscribe to my theory whereas the people of CT do not. I submit that NY is a better fishery by far, though I realize this is subjective. I feel my argument is logical, I assume there is factual evidence that led NY to subscribe to my theory, but being unable to present it myself, I guess I'm pretty much done here.
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J.P.
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PECo



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 5200
Location: Avon, CT

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, J.P., if you were to find any studies on this, I'd love to read them. Very Happy
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flippy



Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 1150

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vudac,, Why do over 15 clubs from NY come and fish Candlewood during the spawn??? and they plan these tournys a year in advance,,, I wouldnt say that us anglers whether NY or CT, neglect or potentially go out and damage the fishery, we dont,,, Maybe a smaller pond or lake where bedding fish are kept for the pan,,, Most of us on this sight are true sportsman,,, and in CT we do care for our fishery,,, as a matter of fact,, we have a grant from the government to improve our fishery,, If you want to start an arguement over how each state fishes or when they fish,,,, your on the wrong sight,,, this is CTFISHTALK,,, But like I said,, I do hear you on bed fishing,, it does come up throughout the nation every year,,, As for having a different type of fish tourny for the bass guys, I dont think so, we hunt bass,, they would be better off suspending bass fishing for a couple months,,But they dont,, why??? because they feel it does not harm the fishery,, I was talking with the state today about this, and like Bill said, there is no evidence of the fishery being harmed, if there was they would put certain dates, especially on smaller lakes and ponds where the fishing would be closed, especially our bass managed lakes, but throughout the years there seems to be no problem with the fishery,, what we are very concerned about now are those ZEBRA mussels,,

Last edited by flippy on Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vudak



Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Phil, here's a document that NY used to go to a catch-and-release season for black bass (as I'm advocating for us to have here--I think some of you may mistakenly think I want a closed season... I don't). There are points in it that go both ways:

http://www.greatlakesbass.com/fishing/NewYorkBlackBassWhitePaper.pdf

It would be interesting to read the Neves' findings if someone can access it. It seems to be quoted in many state's studies:

"Neves (1975) found a 75%
reduction in the number of fry produced in smallmouth bass nests when males were excluded from nests by enclosures."

Flippy,

Nope, I'm not a hippy. I just try to live my life by principles and that can be a real pain in the *** for everyone at times.
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J.P.
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Vudak



Joined: 02 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flippy wrote:
Vudac,, Why do over 15 clubs from NY come and fish Candlewood during the spawn??? and they plan these tournys a year in advance,,, I wouldnt say that us anglers whether NY or CT, neglect or potentially go out and damage the fishery, we dont,,, Maybe a smaller pond or lake where bedding fish are kept for the pan,,, Most of us on this sight are true sportsman,,, and in CT we do care for our fishery,,, as a matter of fact,, we have a grant from the government to improve our fishery,, If you want to start an arguement over how each state fishes or when they fish,,,, your on the wrong sight,,, this is CTFISHTALK,,, But like I said,, I do hear you on bed fishing,, it does come up throughout the nation every year,,, As for having a different type of fish tourny for the bass guys, I dont think so, we hunt bass,, they would be better off suspending bass fishing for a couple months,,But they dont,, why??? because they feel it does not harm the fishery,, I was talking with the state today about this, and like Bill said, there is no evidence of the fishery being harmed, if there was they would put certain dates, especially on smaller lakes and ponds where the fishing would be closed, especially our bass managed lakes, but throughout the years there seems to be no problem with the fishery,, what we are very concerned about now are those ZEBRA mussels,,


Had my last post before you edited yours...

Fair enough Flippy, but I do see most of the pro-spawn tourny arguments as saying, "well, there's not enough of us to damage the fishery" and not saying, "This is completely harmless to the fish we just caught's 'family' (and yes, I realize that's a stupid term I'll catch flak for, but how else can I describe it?)

You might be a drop in the bucket, but you're a drop in the bucket! Guess what, if you flat out poached the thing (assuming it wasn't legal size/whatever), you'd be a drop in the bucket too. You don't do that, because you consider yourself a sportsman, and act like one--sometimes.

So when it is convenient, when it doesn't interrupt our fun, we can be sporting and respectful of these animals. When that gets in the way, we aren't. That' strikes me as hypocritical, and despite the very valid points everyone has made in this argument, none have addressed this hypocrisy. If you're ok with that, then fine. But if you're going to moo, don't be upset when people call ya a cow.

What can I say? I'm calling it like I see it.
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J.P.
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PECo



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 5200
Location: Avon, CT

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.P.

Thanks for the link to the article. It's a review of studies and data on the impact of a closed season on black bass (i.e., largemouth bass and smallmouth bass) populations in New York. The authors' conclusion, based on the available studies and data, appears to be that angling has little impact on black bass populations:

Page 9 -
If angling was a significant factor in year class variability, we would expect to see greater variability in states where there is no protection for guarding males, but there is no evidence that the current regulations in New York State serve to reduce recruitment variability relative to more southern states where no protective regulations are in place.

Page 11 -
Nonetheless, Lake Erie data provides strong evidence that even with angling pressure during the spawning season, annual recruitment did not decline relative to years prior to the opening of the spring fishing season, even in the face of increased overall angling effort.

Page 12 -
Abundances of black bass populations in the state vary widely, but there is little evidence that differential protection from angling during the spawning season contributes to these differences.

Page 12 -
Data concerning potential increased vulnerability of male bass to angling during the guarding period is inconclusive.

I understand your belief, feeling, intuition, or whatever you want to call it, that pulling black bass off of beds must hurt a fishery. However, the studies and data cited in this article don't support your conclusion. I agree with the following statement by the authors:

Protective measures typically take the form of regulations, but regulations must be formulated on sound scientific data, and restriction of access to angling resources should take place only when necessary to protect or fairly allocate them.

In the absence of information to the contrary, I don't see any reason to change the current black bass fishing regulations in Connecticut.

Phil
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DirtyDawg10



Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 2238
Location: Granby, CT

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was steering away from posting in here but I couldn't resist.

Here's an interesting fact about spawning bass...

Quote:
The typical nest will yield 2,000 – 10,000 fry (baby bass) from which only about 4 or 5 bass will reach 10 inches in length. After the fry reach 1 inch in length, the male bass watching over them will relinquish them, and may even begin to eat them.


It is almost impossible to determine how tourneys affect bass populations in general terms. I'm guessing it varies greatly across different bodies of water. I can see both sides of the argument but IMO if it is not something regulated by the DEP there's no reason to hold it against people that do choose to catch spawning males guarding nests. I myself would probably not specifically target those fish but that is just my own choice. On the other hand if I saw an 8lb fish guarding a nest I'd have a very hard time not throwing a lure at it. I also suspect there are nests that are not disrupted by angling from which no fish become viable.

Having raised several broods of fish in my personal fish tanks it is amazing how few fry actually make it to adulthood. Even in a controlled environment (fish tank) with zero predators. This is why there are such large numbers of eggs dropped by the females in order for their odds to increase. That's why a bass making it to 8lbs from an egg is equivalent (or actually even more difficult) than one of us winning the lottery.
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